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Episode 18: Leadership & burnout – the issue we can’t ignore

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In this episode, we turn our focus to burnout. Burnout is increasing, and it seems to be everywhere at the moment. New research out of AUT suggests 11 per cent of New Zealand workers might be experiencing burnout.

Globally, COVID-19 has increased pressure on working adults as they juggle uncertainty, work and life commitments. For those in a leadership role, the pressure can be even greater.

To take a deep dive on the topic, we are joined by two of New Zealand’s leading experts: Professor Jarrod Haar of AUT’s business school and Suzi McAlpine, leadership coach and author of the popular new release book – Beyond Burnout: A New Zealand Guide.

We discuss what burnout is, the signs and symptoms, and the impact of burnout on self, loved ones and work. Plus, we explore the impact of burnout on leaders and business productivity. Plus, we discuss those all-important solutions to avoid burnout, and what to do if you’re already there or supporting someone to recover.

 

Our guests:

Professor Jarrod Haar: Professor Jarrod Haar (PhD) is a Professor of Human Resource Management in the Department of Management and has tribal affiliations of Ngati Maniapoto and Ngati Mahuta. In 2018, Professor Haar was appointed as a Member of the Marsden Fund Council and is the Convenor of the Marsden Economics and Human Behavioural Sciences panel. Jarrod is a Research Fellow of the Australia & New Zealand Academy of Management (since 2012), an Associate Fellow of the Human Resource Institute of New Zealand (HRINZ) and won the inaugural HRINZ HR Researcher of the Year Award in 2016. In April 2016, he became the Deputy Director of the NZ Work Research Institute. In 2017, he won the Faculty of Business and Economics (AUT) Individual Researcher of the Year. His research approach spans broadly across a wide range of management topics, but with a strong focus on Human Resource Management and Organizational Behaviour.

Suzi McAlpine:  A leadership coach, award-winning blogger and keynote speaker, Suzi works alongside CEOs, managers and executives to facilitate clarity, direction and optimal performance in the areas people need it most. Suzi McAlpine is a Leadership Development Specialist and author of award-winning leadership blog, The Leader’s Digest. She writes and teaches about accomplished leadership, what magic emerges when it’s present, and how to ignite better leadership in individuals, teams and organisations.
Suzi has been a leader and senior executive herself, working alongside CEOs and executive teams in many guises. Her experience has included being a head-hunter and executive coach, and a practice leader for a division at the world’s largest HR consulting firm.

“You can’t talk about burnout without having a conversation around leadership practices.”

– Suzi McAlpine

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Episode insights

Episode Summary

Key points

This episode covers:

  • Burnout is increasing globally, with 11% of New Zealand workers potentially experiencing it
  • Burnout is defined as emotional, physical, and mental exhaustion caused by prolonged stress
  • Key symptoms include chronic exhaustion, increased cynicism, and reduced professional efficacy
  • Burnout is often systemic, related to organisational culture and leadership practices
  • Technology use after hours and workload are significant drivers of burnout
  • Minority groups, particularly Māori workers, may experience higher rates of burnout

 

Detailed summary

1: Understanding burnout (00:08 – 06:19)

  • Definition of burnout as a state of emotional, physical, and mental exhaustion
  • Three red flags: chronic exhaustion, increased cynicism, and reduced professional efficacy
  • Distinction between fatigue and burnout
  • Burnout Assessment Tool (BAT) with four dimensions: exhaustion, emotional impairment, cognitive impairment, and mental distancing

 

2: Causes and prevalence of burnout (06:19 – 15:24)

  • Covid-19 exacerbating conditions leading to burnout
  • Technology use after hours as a driver of burnout
  • Organisational awareness of mental wellbeing importance
  • Systemic causes of burnout, including leadership practices and workplace culture

 

3: Impact of burnout on organisations (15:24 – 22:53)

  • Reduced productivity, engagement, and increased turnover
  • Estimated cost of burnout in New Zealand: half a billion to a billion dollars annually
  • Mental health issues affecting individuals, whānau, and work teams
  • Reputational issues for organisations known for employee burnout

 

4: Myths and misconceptions about burnout (22:53 – 31:19)

  • Misconception that individuals can easily stop themselves from burning out
  • Perfectionism and workaholism as individual-level characteristics contributing to burnout
  • Importance of leaders modelling appropriate work-life balance
  • Higher burnout rates among Māori workers, potentially due to cultural expectations and workload

 

5: Leadership strategies to address burnout (31:19 – 47:03)

  • Building psychological safety and trust in teams
  • Prioritising and involving employees in decision-making
  • Improving communication and feedback processes
  • Destigmatising burnout and mental health support services like EAP

 

6: Key takeaways for wellbeing champions (47:03 – 51:07)

  • Tailoring arguments to influence decision-makers based on their motivations
  • Treating burnout as an organisational issue rather than an individual problem
  • Tracking work hours and recognising signs of ‘smouldering’ in oneself and colleagues
  • Importance of personal care and self-awareness in preventing burnout

 

Additional notes:

  • Burnout costs organisations billions globally through reduced productivity and turnover
  • Middle managers are often at high risk of burnout due to pressures from above and below
  • Workplace loneliness and imposter syndrome can contribute to burnout
  • Recovery from burnout can take significant time, with one example cited of three months
  • Keeping track of work hours and staying below 55 hours per week is recommended

 


APPLYING THIS TO THE WORKPLACE

If you’re thinking about how to apply this to your workplace, here are some things to consider.

The business case:

  • Potential for significant cost savings by addressing burnout effectively
  • Improving leadership practices to build trust and psychological safety
  • Implementing systemic changes to workload, technology use, and prioritisation improve business outcomes and reduces burnout
  • Destigmatising burnout through open discussion and role modelling by leaders

 

Potential challenges to address:

  • Stigma and reluctance to discuss burnout openly in many workplaces
  • Lack of effective solutions beyond surface-level interventions (e.g. fruit bowls)
  • Middle managers often caught between pressures from above and below
  • Low utilisation rates of existing support services like EAP
  • Potential for burnout to spread within teams and organisations
  • Productivity and engagement losses due to unaddressed burnout
  • Reputational damage for organisations seen as burnout-prone workplaces

 

Top tips for listeners:

  • Organisations should prioritise mental wellbeing alongside physical wellbeing
  • Leaders need to model healthy work practices, including limiting after-hours communication
  • Implement strategies to build social connection and psychological safety in the workplace
  • Regularly check in with employees about their wellbeing and listen actively
  • Provide clear expectations and involve employees in decision-making processes
  • Communicate and promote employee assistance programmes (EAP) effectively

TRANSCRIPT

00:08

Sarah: Welcome to the Revolutionaries of Wellbeing podcast. I’m founder and host Sarah McGuinness.

The Revolutionaries of Wellbeing, or ROW, is a community of wellbeing managers from organisations around the globe. At ROW, we develop you as a wellbeing leader, giving you a powerful support network, professional development and workplace wellbeing solutions so that you can focus on giving your employees the right support at the right time to be stronger, better and faster at improving wellbeing in your workplace.

Professional development is key. These discussions on workplace wellbeing are designed to inspire, share ideas and raise awareness of important issues we can all take action on. The interviews are recorded as part of our monthly Wellbeing Wednesday webinars.

In this podcast we turn our focus to burnout. Burnout is increasing and it seems to be everywhere at the moment. New research out of AUT suggests 11% of New Zealand workers might be experiencing burnout. Globally, Covid-19 has increased pressure on working adults as they juggle uncertainty, work and life commitments.

For those in a leadership role, the pressure can be even greater. For this special podcast on Burnout and leadership, we’re joined by two of New Zealand’s leading experts on the topic, Professor Jarrod Haar of AUT’s business school and Suzi McAlpine, leadership coach and author of the popular book Beyond Burnout, a New Zealand guide.

We discuss what Burnout is, the signs and symptoms, the impact of burnout on self loved ones and work.

Plus, we explore the impact of burnout on leaders and business productivity. Finally, we’ll discuss those all important solutions to avoid burnout and we’ll discuss what to do if you’re already there or supporting someone to recover.

, 01:55

Sarah: Welcome Suzi. Welcome, Jarrod. I don’t think I need to do much of an intro on burnout. I think we’re all pretty familiar with this being a really big topic, but what I’d be keen to do is just hear from each of you briefly.

A little quick intro. I think it’s probably better to hear from you in your own words. So Suzi, I’ll jump onto you first.

, 02:11

Suzi: Thanks so much Sarah. It’s wonderful to be here and I have professional crushes on both of you, so I’m really looking forward to hearing what you both have to say and Jarrod as well. So I’m a bit of a self-confessed leadership geek.

I think I geek out on anything that’s to do with leadership as much as some of my friends do with Game of Thrones, I think. And I’m an executive coach.

My day job is to work with mostly executive leadership teams to become high performing teams. I write a blog called the Leaders Digest and I wrote a book which started four years ago called Beyond Burnout.

And part of that was really, I had had a front row seat to a lot of burnt-out leaders in my role in executive search and as an executive coach. But about four years ago, I started to see a rise in that and I got curious and I saw a lot of research indicating that it was on the rise.

And the other thing that sort of annoyed me a little bit was that all the articles on the Internet, it was a wash about burnout, but it was all targeted to the individual, you know, what to do to stop it and prevent it.

And that kind of annoyed me a little bit because when I looked into it a bit more, when we look at the causes of burnout, they are systemic, they are to do with culture and leadership practises and are in the organisation.

So that sort of started my journey on writing a book called Beyond Burnout. So I live in Nelson and I have three children. Married to a wonderful man who annoys the crap out of me, but I love him dearly. And, yeah, that’s about it, really. That’s me.

, 04:01

Sarah: Fantastic. And I forgot to say, Suzi as well, you very kindly gifted us some books to give away. So we will have maybe the first five questions that get asked. They can have a book. Yeah. And I have to say, it’s wonderful. Amazing. Here it is. And Jarrod, let’s go to you.

, 04:16

Jarrod: So, kia ora, everybody. I am of Ngāti Maniapoto and Ngāti Mahuta descent. I live in Auckland. So Tāmaki Makaurau and Tainui up to South Auckland.

I am a professor of human resource management. I completed my PhD way back in 2003. Seems a long time ago. I have been doing burnout research in different ways and maybe I’ll talk to that when we get to the definition type thing.

But it’s been definitely pedal to the meddle since lockdown, just pre lockdown. I started doing, I guess, some new burnout research and it has been dominating my academic career and I guess particularly in the media, but also writing wise.

So I’ve had one paper published a month or so ago, but I have about four or five other ones under review and I’m trying to write about four or five other ones without burning out.

, 05:29

Sarah: The irony.

, 05:30

Jarrod: A typical academic, you know, do as I say that not as I do, but for the first time. And I’ll talk about this when we talk about some of those drivers.

Trying to bring the lens back on myself as well, which has been a useful exercise. So, kia ora, everybody. Looking forward to today.

, 05:51

Sarah: Yeah, fantastic. Kia ora. Well, welcome, Jarrod. And yes, I certainly feel you on that one. I used to do presentations on how to live your best life and then burnt out. So I feel like I know this. Well, look, let’s get clear, let’s start on burnout.

What is burnout when we’re talking about it as a syndrome, an illness, what’s the language that we’re using and what are the signs and symptoms that we’re looking for? Kick off with whoever feels more comfortable to take it, Suzi or Jarrod.

, 06:19

Suzi: Okay, well, burnout is a sort of a state of emotional, physical and mental exhaustion that’s caused by excessive and prolonged stress. Chronic stress that’s related to your professional life. Stress in and of itself is not necessarily the problem. In fact, a certain amount of stress is actually really good for our wellbeing and our performance.

But the World Health Organisation has come out and called it an occupational phenomenon. And you think, well, what’s the big deal about that?

Well, it really talks to the significance and growing problem of burnout. And there are three red flags which I’m sure Jarrod will go into. One of them is chronic exhaustion. So I loved what I think, Jarrod, you said in the stuff, it’s like you’ve got nothing left to give.

It’s not just you lose your bounce back factor, you might go on holiday and you come back and your batteries won’t recharge. So it’s that really extreme end of exhaustion. The second red flag or symptom is increased cynicism or depersonalization.

 Sort of a distancing and reduced professional efficacy. So it sort of feels like, you know, you’re trying your hardest but you just can’t perform the things that you used to. Somebody in the book who I researched said it’s a bit like running a marathon in molasses and I thought that was a really good metaphor.

But Jarrod, I’m sure you’ll have a lot more academic and correct ways of actually defining burnout. So I’ll hand over to you to add to that.

, 07:59

Jarrod: Kia ora. So this is a very good point, right? Academics love measuring things and creating things and changing things. So to be honest, two things.

One is burnout is not fatigue. I’m really tired. What I say to people is hallelujah, have a holiday. Right? Have a week off, you’ll recover. Fatigue is great. Now, fatigue does lead to, you know, workplace errors, etcetera. But fatigue.

Even if someone said, I’m extremely fatigued, great, take an extremely. You know, it’s going to have to be the Cook Islands, isn’t it? It’s about the only place at the moment you could fly to. So fatigue is different from burnout, and there’s a couple of different ways.

The one that Suzi described is the Maslach burnout inventory, which I have used since my PhD days. More recently, I’ve used a new one, the burnout assessment tool. The BAT. Even has a little bat sign. And they’ve changed things up a little bit.

 They’ve got four dimensions. Exhaustion, physical, mental feeling, worn out. Right. So that was pretty easy. But it’s got things like emotional impairment. So this is where you start losing control of your emotions. And I read in stuff last month, it was an example there about nurses getting to work early, having a good cry in the car, and then going to work.

And I was thinking, yeah, yeah. Like, that’s a healthy thing, right? So that’s. That’s clearly not normal. A cognitive impairment, though, is when we start having memory problems. And I’ve heard people talk about this and people, you know, we could be talking about.

I’ve opened up the lid on my laptop and I can’t remember how to start it, right. It’s not like I can’t remember how to operate to do brain surgery. It could be something very, very basic. And the last one is mental distancing, which aligns with the cynicism, which is where, you know, I actually don’t really. I won’t. I doubt the worth of the work I’m doing.

So I’m just kind of very cynical about my work. And so those are those kind of four dimensions. And the reason I use those, that it’s the only measure that has a burnt out. It kind of ranks people. And then you can draw a line and say, if you’ve scored above this one, you are burnt out. And the next one down is called the orange zone, which means, like, I call it your smouldering.

And then we’ve got everybody else, and most of us. I use a toaster analogy. Burnt out is when you’ve got totally blackened toast that you never want to eat. The smouldering side is when maybe one side’s a bit charred and smoking, and you do doubt eating it, but the reality is most people will get a bit cooked in the workplace. Right. That’s very natural.

And indeed, my data shows about ten out of 1000 people will have, literally will have one. One on a scale. They’ll have no burnout. So they’re the total outliers. 1% will be, ah, works fine.

I have no hassles, no, you know, no exhaustion, no nothing. So that’s the kind of my definition and the reason why I’m using that one. I do acknowledge there are other ways to look at it as well.

, 11:27

Suzi: I love that metaphor of the toaster, Jarrod. I think it really explains it so well. So, yeah, I love metaphors.

, 11:37

Sarah: It’s a good one, isn’t it? Because it’s really, really visual. And I guess that leads really nicely into the next question, which is around why is burnout such a big issue right now?

Because using the toaster analogy, are more of us getting to the really burnt stage more quickly, or has it been happening for a while and we have greater awareness what’s kind of driving and sitting behind that right now?

, 11:59

Suzi: You go, Jarrod.

, 12:01

Jarrod: Okay, so I’ve been tracking this pre Covid. So February 2020, May 2020, December 2020, April 2021, and about to do some more, maybe next month. And I’m talking about surveys of about 1000 workers.

So definitely on the way up. I’ve had a few people say, I don’t blame Covid, but part of me thinks, actually, I think Covid is that kind of psychological.

I called it the pebble in the shoe. Right. It’s been nagging us. And even though we’ve had six weeks of lockdown versus. I was talking to an academic in England, I think they’re now back at their university after, like, 14 months of teaching online.

And I was just like, whoa. You know, I was like, oh, we’ve had six weeks. And they really hated me. And so I think we’ve had that driver going on. So I think there is more burnout occurring. We have more awareness of it.

So people like Sarah and Suzi and Jarrod, I think that’s helping raise attention, but I think other things that drive it around, workload, working conditions, and these things are naturally more challenging as we go along.

And so my research shows technology use after hours. So at home, on your phone, doing those things that impact on family time are a driver of being burnt out. So I do have some other drivers, but I’m happy to kind of swing it off to Suzi there next.

, 13:43

Suzi: The only thing I would add is that I agree with Jarrod, although, you know, we can’t blame Covid for all of our burnout woes, but it certainly has exacerbated a lot of the conditions that, you know, that cause burnout.

So I’ve got nothing more to add around that. What I would say is that organisations that I’m working with, and I think they’re waking up to the importance of mental wellbeing, and so it’s as important as people’s physical wellbeing and it not only is the right thing to do to look after your employees, but it also makes good business sense.

We’ll talk about the costs later, but I still think, for the most part, a lot of organisations are still finding their way on how to tackle not only burnout, but mental distress, mental wellness in the workplace.

And we’ve seen a proliferation of yoga classes and mindfulness and fruit bowl in the lunchroom. But burnout’s not going to be fixed by a fruit bowl in the lunchroom, so I think there’s a way to go when we look at the root causes.

, 14:54

Sarah: Yeah. And then it certainly speaks with, doesn’t it, the difference between. You talked about this earlier, Suzi, about the difference between looking at it from an individual approach and actually looking at it from a system or an organisational approach.

And certainly, Jarrod, from what you’re saying, there really are these driving factors that are at an institutional system kind of level, rather than just one person sort of smouldering on their own.

When we look at organisations, you know, what are the big impacts when burnout’s not addressed? What are we seeing across organisations?

, 15:24

Suzi: I’ll just briefly say that and you’ll have some really good research to back this up. But, you know, burnout has. Has been proven to cause issues with reduced productivity, engagement, turnover, precinteeism, absenteeism.

So it really isn’t good for the bottom line from an organisational perspective. And it’s costing a lot, not only in healthcare, but in the bottom line. So, Jarrod, I mean, in terms of the costs, I’m sure you have some.

, 15:59

Jarrod: Global data says it’s in the hundreds of billions. So in New Zealand, you know, you’re least looking at half a billion dollars a year and it’s probably a billion dollars. And to be honest, it probably does morph out of burnout into mental health issues in general. Right. But the research shows people who are burnt out want to leave their job.

You as an employer might go, oh, well, Jarrod’s burnt out and he’s left. Good luck finding the next replacement in this market. Right, so turnover cost the organisation, engagement drops.

Lots of research says engaged employees are more productive, so they’re going to be less productive, as you said, about all the kind of absenteeism and all those kind of things. I think some of the other bits there is burnt out.

Workers do have mental health issues. Those will impact not only themselves but their whanau. I haven’t seen the research, but it makes sense that’ll impact the work teams. And if you imagine these high pressure work teams where if one person gets into that burnout stage and the rest of the team is smouldering, using my analogy earlier, you know, there’s a warning sign not only for the organisation but for the rest of the team, right. If you see somebody burn out and literally drop off, then you’re like, oh, my gosh, this is where we’re all heading to. So fundamentally, what does it cost? Lots and lots of money.

And to be fair, donating $100 to Mike King’s Gumboot Friday charity is fabulous, but it’s not going to fix it. And I had somebody joke to me once and say, maybe if I just add a couple more bananas to the fruit bowl, we’ll be fine.

And I thought, you know, that’s a great. That’s a great example of if that’s the end point for your organisation, you’re in trouble. But, yeah, so fundamentally all detrimental.

, 17:58

Suzi: There’s nothing good, it’s not a good picture. And, you know, and as you say, it’s not just. It’s not just individual cost and team costs. I read one of the bits of researchers that they say it’s catchy, you know, so it can spread. And I just want to jump in here on my soapbox here about one of the biggest myths that I’ve come across and I mentioned earlier about treating it as an individual problem.

And I’m going to throw in another metaphor here that’s a bit like treating the sick fish when it’s the water that’s contaminated. It’s not only problematic and can almost bring the semblance of blaming the individual for burning out, but as Jarrod says, it can miss some of the other people who may be on that.

You know, it’s not burnt out, but they might be getting the toast burnt quite a lot and it misses. When you look at the root causes of burnout, most of these are definitely grounded in systems, in the ecosystem, in leadership practises. You know, you can’t talk about burnout without having a conversation around leadership practises.

, 19:06

Sarah: I think that’s so important. And it also sort of talks to that also the reputational issues for organisations, because if you get a reputation for being an employer where people burn out. You know, it doesn’t take long, especially in a country the size of New Zealand, for word to get out that that’s kind of how the culture operates or whatever.

 But I love the myths. Let’s go to some of the myths because there are some great ones. And I was sharing with Suzi and Jarrod earlier that, you know, especially having shared my story in national media and talked about it quite a lot online, I think I probably heard most of the myths passed back at me. So all I’ve been doing is diligently keeping a list of them and I thought, oh, good, now I can ask the expert.

So here’s some of the things that I’ve heard and I’d love to test these with you. One of them is, why don’t people stop themselves from burning out?

, 19:52

Jarrod: Yeah, I’ll jump in there. So two individual level characteristics, perfectionism and workaholism. So the perfectionists have the problem and all that jazz. Maybe if I just get one last go over on the weekend so that long hours start to tick up.

So there’s that challenge there versus the organisations that might be saying, hey, we need to be working smarter, not harder, less hours. And when I say less hours. So my research says 55 hours is one of those. A week is one of those. Key determinants of the World Health Organisation says if you’re working 55 hours a week or more are continuously, like on a regular basis, your chances of dropping dead with a heart attack are about 17% higher than your other fellow workers.

Now, that’s 192 countries, that data, so it includes New Zealand. So I use 55 hours as the red line. Right. So I say, you know, you got to stay away from those things. So I think that’s one.

And it’s so much easier for organisations to say, oh, you need to manage it better. I am encouraging, which is a bit of an interesting one, organisations to look at their technology use and say, how bad is it if I turned it off at 06:00 on a Friday night and started it at 06:00 on a Monday morning?

Oh, I couldn’t do that. Why? Because if I’m like this and I can’t actually access anything, I’m probably going to put the phone down, right. There’s no work emails and that may not be a bad thing. And I’ve suggested even firms try it one weekend a month, just see what happens. I bet you the workforce is going to go, oh, that was amazing.

, 21:41

Suzi: Yeah, I totally. I just have to jump in here and really back up what Jarrod is saying, and from a leadership perspective, I think a lot of leaders underestimate the shadow they cast. So when they whisper, it comes out like a shout.

So if you’ve got leaders who consistently sending emails out at ten or 11:00 it’s really hard, unless they’re really clear about saying, I don’t expect you to respond, but even then it’s like, put it in your draughts and send it the next day.

I think it’s really important that we look at that use of out of work email and technology. I totally agree with what Jarrod’s saying there and I think this is where leaders have to lead and model what they expect of their teams.

, 22:27

Sarah: Yeah, I think that’s really important. And it sort of talks to one of the other ones, which maybe is not so easy for me to come take on board as an entrepreneur. But I’ve heard others have faced with this words, well, just quit your job, as if that’s the answer to everything. And we are looking more at an individual here.

But what happens if someone does just kind of quit their job and walk away? What are the psychological benefits but what are also potentially some of the downfalls?

, 22:53

Suzi: Well, you know, I think the interesting thing was, you know, I interviewed quite a few surgeons and, you know, some of them, they’re so passionate about their, about their work and they don’t want to have to leave.

 And so I would say, look, in some cases, leaving the profession or your job is an option, but it’s not the only one. And I think that there are many other ways a path back from burnout recovery, that don’t necessarily mean that that is the only option. I mean, I’ve experienced burnout myself.

I was really lucky that even though my direct manager and I were both quite in the dark about what burnout was, he worked really co collaboratively with me in terms of a path back and I had a really supportive organisation in that regard. So the other thing is too, you know, like Jarrod said, is that when you are experiencing burnout cognitively, I don’t think when you’re in an extreme sense, that’s the best time to make life changing decisions.

So in some ways it’s like, don’t make that decision right now when you’re right, you know, when you’re in that position.

, 24:04

Sarah: And Jarrod, did you have anything to add to that one?

, 24:07

Jarrod: Yeah, I’ve got some interesting research. I haven’t written this into a paper, it’s on my to do list.

So what I found is that those employees who were burnt out are more likely to want to leave their job, which makes sense, but if you find lots of meaning in your work, it actually reduces the willingness to leave, which sounds good, but it doesn’t reduce the mental health problems of being burnt out.

So you could be literally going, oh, I really love my job, while you are literally inflamed, burning up to a crisp. And, I mean, I’m going to talk more about this a bit later on, but, you know, I think this is the role of friends, Whanau and colleagues to say, hey, you know, I’m seeing a dramatic change in your wellbeing and I’m encouraging you to think, or, that’s a good point, Suzi, about the cognitive problems.

You know, maybe it’s, you know, you need to go see the GP and talk about what’s going on, because I can see the problem as your friend, colleague, partner or whatever, and because people will sometimes just say, I’ve just got to work through.

Get out the other side, which might, instead of on a linear path, oh, I’ve got through the workload, they actually just dug themselves a bigger hole and then that’s almost impossible, then you’re going to have to have a serious kind of crisis to recover.

, 25:28

Suzi: Yeah. And I was like, this is where I say we were having a conversation. Do as I say, not as I do.

One of the things is don’t do what I did, which was dig deeper, just work harder, blame myself. I think, like a lot of mental distress in the workplace, burnout is shrouded in stigma and people are too afraid to stick their hand up and say, actually, I’m struggling because they will perceive that that will be a career limiting move.

And one of them, you know, we’re going to talk a little bit later about what we can do, but from an organisation and leadership perspective, destigmatising burnout, I think, is part of it. And, you know, it was exactly what Jarrod said.

If it wasn’t for some really good friends and my husband, who didn’t really understand it but could start to witness what was happening, I think I would have just carried on and carried on and things got better when I actually started to reach out and get help from various. Just various people.

, 26:26

Sarah: Yeah. And that would. I would certainly echo that and be my own experience. In fact, the lovely Hannah Hardy Jones is on this call.

I do remember her at one stage saying to me, you seem like, you know, almost kind of manic, and it’s almost that that work push. You’re just working and you’ve almost shifted into another space where you actually can’t reasonably make reasonable choices anymore because you’ve kind of, you know, your whole head is shifted. But I really want to kind of come back to that myth thing as well.

Is there any myths that you hear all the time that you just, you know, here’s your soapbox. I know, you know, Suzi, you had one, but is there any others you think is really worth dispelling? Because that also helps with the destigmatization.

, 27:01

Jarrod: Right.

, 27:01

Sarah: If we’re, if we’re able to talk about this in a way where people are actually talking about, you know, what burnout is and what an impact it has.

, 27:09

Suzi: Jarrod, what do you think? I’m keen to hear some of you.

, 27:12

Jarrod: Yeah, I guess one of my, the biggest one I had is actually a slight critique of the term burnout. So, yes, I’m burnt out because I’m really tired. And I kind of think, you know, I think the awareness has led to a slight, you know, oh, my gosh, I’m exhausted from this week. I’m burnt out.

So now it gets used too much, unfortunately, you know, and maybe one of those things is, you know, if you think you’re exhausted slash burnt out, take a week off. And if at the end of that week, nothing can you feel like it’s improved at day three, right. You’ll be like, oh, my gosh, I met. If you’re really burnt out by the start of the next week, you’ll go, oh, no, I’m still as exhausted as I was.

And then I think you need to say, actually, I’m not exhausted or really tired. Maybe it’s something a little bit more. And it probably is more burnout. And as I was saying earlier, being fatigued is bad, but it’s a far easier route back to normality than being that kind of burnt to a crisp type thing.

And so that’s probably my one myth out there, is that, you know, I read something that said, oh, 50% of medical doctors and hospitals are burnt out. And I’ll say, no, they’re not, because people would be dying all the time. Now, are doctors and nurses overworked, underpaid, under resourced? Totally. Are they?

Some will definitely be in that burnout range, and some might be smouldering, and it might be a lot who are smouldering. You know, in those kind of critical healthcare jobs, you know, poor performance means more patients would die and we’d see a spike in deaths. Thank you know, and thankfully, if there’s any on online or listening to the podcast, hope, you know, keep up the good work, saving lives, you know, but fundamentally, that may just be a lot of fatigue, needing some. And don’t get me wrong.

See, the trouble for that sector is, oh, I need three weeks off to recover. I’ve got no one to replace you. You’re going to have two days. That’s not going to. That won’t help them either. So complicated.

, 29:21

Sarah: Yeah, really challenging. And I mean, we are getting, as you said, those are sort of professional groups that are getting some visibility around this. And we often see media stories around the medical professional teaching profession.

What about minority groups? Because I know, Gerald, you’ve been doing a little bit of work around Mori workers or other minority groups and that what you’re seeing in terms of burnout there.

, 29:41

Jarrod: Yes. So interesting. All my research finds no gender difference. Part of me might think, hooray, nobody. But if you think about it, it actually means that given that those burnout rates are increasing, there’s nothing to cheer about that woman owners burnt out as men.

But what I was finding in my December data was that higher burnout. And I do think that represents kind of two distinct groups. One is the low skilled workers having, you know, more insecure work, having to work more, probably multiple jobs, longer hours, especially, say, in Auckland, because it’s a flipping expensive city to live in.

And then conversely, is the multi professionals who are working lots of hours and have this kind of, well, there’s the kind of double cultural shift, the extra work around getting every mori specific job that comes their boss’s way. I’ve got something for you.

But also this whole kind of doing meaningful work that benefits multicultural multi society or the hapu iwi, and feeling like I’ve just got to do this extra thing because my hapu will really appreciate it, which is obviously great on one hand, but if it leads to you being burnt out, that is not going to help everybody, including yourself, in the long run.

So, yeah, there is definitely some distressing data around Mori from that time period.

, 31:19

Sarah: And I’m really curious, you know, that there are those sort of often touted six sort of six causes of burnout. And that sort of talks to one of the myths that burnout is only caused by overwork, working long hours.

Yes, that is one of the main causes, but there are actually others. And, you know, relating to what you’re saying, Jarrod, particularly around Māori, is I wonder if you think some of the other causes are things like insufficient reward, a sense of perceived sense of isolation, an absence of fairness.

So things like pay, perk, prestige. Prestige, you know, a values conflict or a mismatch in terms of your own values and that of the organisation and a lack of control. You know, I have more questions. I’m curious about the interplay between those things.

, 32:11

Jarrod: So I do have some recent data. My most recent research I did look at workplace loneliness, which is an interesting, you know, so basically it’s. It’s having no close personal relationships at work.

So you could work in an office with 20 people and you are literally like, oh, I feel quite alone here. Right? Because I don’t have a friend. Alas, it’s about five times more likely to be burnt out if you’re in that kind of high level of workplace loneliness. So do not underestimate, you know, two things there individually.

Do not underestimate the importance of talking, socialising and having a, friendships at work. But b, if you’re the. If you’re in this, I have none of these symptoms, none of these things occur to me. Congratulations. That’s fabulous. You’re not in the minority, but you’re in a, you’re in three court, you know, three fifths of the workforce.

Don’t be shy about giving some of your time and energy to your. To lonely work. You know, colleagues who do look like they’re under the pump, you know, go and buy them a copy, go and spend some time talking to them.

They may unload on you and you might go, wow. Yeah, you need to go see HR because that sounds quite terrible. So workplace loneliness, the other one, I’ve just done research on imposter syndrome, which is a kind of whole other conversation in itself, but imposter syndrome, again, another one of those kind of fundamental drivers.

So again, at the individual level, I do have organisational and leadership ones as well. So that’s those, you know, so if you feel like you’re an imposter in your work, no matter what you do, you don’t feel like you kind of deserve the wrong ones. Moving nicely there, you know, you don’t deserve the rewards of your work. That can be a determinant of being burnt out.

, 34:07

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. And actually a term that was sort of came to my head and the two things you’re talking about is almost that building that social capital, you know, building that connection with others, and if yours is a bit depleted to go and fill someone else’s up, and that role that we said, we all have a responsibility. Is that what you would say, Suzi?

, 34:24

Suzi: You’re nodding absolutely, vigorously. Vigorously. So I think we are hardwired.

For connection and people want to connect and this is, people are feeling a bit more lonelier. And so I would say building purposeful social connection in our workplaces is pivotal. And this is where, once again, I believe leaders need to lead on this. You know, if we were a fly on the wall in most organisations, there would be a lot of, what are we doing? Conversations. And that’s fine.

Task related conversations are really good, but I think we need to have more how are we going conversations as well. And this needs to be leader led. If you’re leading a team, you know, one really practical, one organisation I’m dealing with, you know, they’ve a particular leader and this is at a chief executive level, they start their exec teams, really short cheque in about.

On a scale of one to ten, you know, how is everybody, what’s on top of, you know, a really quick cheque in? And that’s at a group level. But also if you’re having your one on ones with your direct reports, you know, include some form of wellbeing or here’s the thing, just ask how are you really?

And listen, listen actively to the answer. Be fully present with people, you know, how many times have we said, how you going? Good, great. And we carry on. And so I think if we can start to see the importance of building purposeful social connection, and sure that might be the, you know, doing a football local, you know, you know, touch team, but it can be other things as well.

And as Jarrod says, if you’re an individual, just if you send somebody’s lonely, you know, invite them out, you know, ask for people’s participation and certainly increase our listening skills, I think that is just one thing that, you know, everybody wins when that happens.

, 36:19

Sarah: Yeah. And I think that’s so important, I’m really picking up from both of you is that use of language and that. Yeah, that connection. And it’s interesting, Suzi, you say that because, you know, all the way through my burnet journey and I’m still recovering, people say, oh, no, how are you? And you kind of have that moment of going. You go to say, I’m really well, thank you. How are you?

Actually, to be fair, I’m not actually very well, but it’s kind of. How do you have that conversation? Because that’s not comfortable for people when it’s the five minute, hi, you know, how’s things going? That’s difficult.

So let’s jump into talking about that from a leadership point of view. What are broadly some of the things that leaders can be doing across their organisations to minimise the impact of burnout, minimise burnout occurring and really support people.

, 37:04

Suzi: Yeah. So one evening when I was writing my book, I had a glass of wine and I came up with the four ‘ise’, recognise, destigmatise, socialise, which is what we’ve talked about, and prioritise.

And these sort of strategies can be applied at an organisational level, at a leadership level and an individual level. Two things I think that leaders need to take. And just on that social connection, one of the most important priorities, priorities for any people leader is to build psychological safety and build trust.

And when we’re talking about trust, it’s creating spaces where people can feel like they can show up fully, that in high trust teams you’ll see things like, I’ve made a mistake, you’re better at this than me, I’m worried about it.

So building trust and psychological safety actually helps that. I think leaders, you know, shame never drives positive behaviour was a quote that Brene Brown said.

So I think, once again, this begins and ends with leadership. If you, you know, it’s not about burnout. But when Craig Hudson, the chief executive of Xero, came out and spoke about his experience with depression, you know, Sir John Kirwan, who wrote the foreword for my book, leaders, as I said, shadows are cast.

The other thing I would do around organising work is look at the degree to which people have a say in the way their work is carried out that’s going to affect that sense of, you know, we say one of the causes is a lack of control.

 So if people can involve employees on the how and the what as well as and the why of the work, I think that’s going to happen. And I think organisations need to get better at prioritising, you know, what are we going to ditch? Delay. You know, I was working with an executive leadership team the other day and they said, here’s our 30 priorities, and that just makes an oxymoron of the word.

So if you’re at an executive leadership team saying, here’s our, you know, even ten priorities, you know, for the organisation, think about how that’s actually going to really philtre down to the rest of it.

So I say get laser focused on what is important and ditch the nice to have kind of interesting stuff, because that’s going to have a huge impact. And for individuals, really start to do what you can to negotiate and discuss priorities with your manager. I mean, at the same time saying no, like Jarrod says, you know, working in, you know, that urgent and important, what is important, not urgent. You know, there’s a whole lot of practical tactics.

So soapbox my moment over.

, 39:53

Sarah: That’s fantastic. It’s really helpful and I’m really picking up just how important that leadership role modelling, as you say, you know, they cast the shadows. Jarrod, I’m keen to hear from you. Other tips come around leadership there.

, 40:05

Jarrod: Yep. So, so my data would say, you know, the research tells us good leaders shape good cultures, good climates and, and those are important. And Suzi mentioned the psychosocial safety.

So my research, I have included that as a climate. If workers in that top who work for a company who are in that top 20% are three times less likely to be burnt out. Right. Because here you’ve got senior management walk the talk. They involve employees on how to do things better, improve their wellbeing.

So again with the role of leaders is vital. I have some interesting data, which this is from my published paper. It was 880 managers in New Zealand. The highest burnt out group was executives and senior managers at 17%. And the lowest group included CEO’s. Now, the reason CEO’s at 10%, right.

This is still a sizable result, but the reason CEO is they have far more freedom to go and I’m going to delegate that to Sarah and Suzi. Can you lead this one? So they are able to remove those, the pressures where obviously the next level down. To me, when I interpret that data, it’s the executives who have to make the CEO’s dreams come true, who get lumbered with all the work.

There was a question around clarity, around setting clarity goals and yes, beyond job and security we have things like clear expectations around work are one of those kind of critical drivers. But not only is our leadership and organisations important to burnout, it’s worth saying that my research shows that, yes, 20% of organisations and or leaders probably do a really good job, 20%, 20% are at the other end and they’re just total crap and they probably don’t care.

And we still have quite a big sizable middle that aren’t doing that great a job. And they might say, oh no, we’ve, I mean, my organisation aut, we have an EAP employee assistance programme. Sounds good. And when I talk to the person, you know, the number of people using it in a year is, I think it was like 4%. And I was trying to convey that 4% is actually a kind of tiny amount. Right.

 And they were like, oh yeah, it’s way busier than it had been pre Covid. And I was like, yeah, but if 20% of the workforce is experiencing burnout. 4% seeking help means that there’s probably a big chunk of workers not utilising those. So I think, you know, for organisations that have some kind of strategy, need to keep pushing and doing more, not say, you know, we have a suite, you know, for one of a better word, it’s just a fancier fruit bowl. Right.

I’ve got everything here and I’m encouraging people to use it. Now. I think we need to be telling organisations that the majority still aren’t doing enough. And I’m not saying it has to be, they have to spend lots of money, but I think they do need to.

Perhaps not picking on those executives, senior managers, because they are burnt out, but, you know, reminding them that leaders play an important role in managing their workforces, their teams, their departments and checking in on their wellbeing. But it sounds like a lot of work for managers, doesn’t it, Suzi?

, 43:44

Sarah: We do. Well, I think it’s a really interesting observation because, and I see this a lot with the discussions I have with the wellbeing champions here and across the community that you often end up with. CEO’s out there talking about these amazing wellbeing initiatives that we do and here’s all the awards that we’ve won and here’s all the initiatives which tend to focus on the lower parts of the organisation.

And it seems to be that middle bit where it all gets lost, you know, and as you say, those people, they have to implement it, they have to kind of be, well, themselves and they’ve got the pressures of their role and so there’s a lot happening in that space.

And, Suzi, you must be seeing that in some of the work that you’re doing.

, 44:18

Suzi: Yeah, and I can’t remember the research, but it’s in the book, is that middle managers are often at quite high risk of burnout because they’ve kind of got the squeeze of top and bottom.

Look, I think when it comes down to leadership practises, it seems common sense and some of the things that you can do as a leader are really just good basic leadership practises and these can actually lower the risk of people experiencing burnout. Clarity and communications is really important.

We’ve talked about prioritisation, making sure that you’re stamping out excessive politics and workplace bullying. You know, that’s like lighter fuel for that experience.

You know, somebody asked what’s. Can you talk a little bit about the values conflict or mismatch? This is one which I’m sure Jarrod would have a lot to say, but I think when people feel a real disconnect between their own personal values and that of the organisation, that can increase a risk of burnout over time.

 And this is where I think when organisations are recruited, it’s in our recruitment practises is really looking at and exploring values and being very upfront and cognizant about what your values are and what that other person is, because that’s a really. That’s a really distressing place for people to be in.

You know, I think that having. Asking for, you know, giving feedback, regular feedback, increasing and improving your coaching and your listening skills, really making it safe that, you know, we talk about that psychological.

These seem like basic leadership practises, but if we can absolutely do that, that’s going to reduce. Interesting story about Eap. I was working with one organisation and they said, and there was a group of them in the room and they said, oh, somebody said, oh, you know, we’ve got EAP now.

Over half of the people in the room were unaware, so it’s not enough just to have these services available. You have to actively communicate. And some of those were senior managers. Recently we had this wonderful example of this chief executive, quite blokey. He came out and said to his team, actually, I’ve used EAP and it was really good.

Now that is what we need to start to see because it’s also addressing that whole stigma. And he was open and saying, actually, we’ve got to communicate it. So just sticking it on the intranet ain’t enough.

, 47:03

Sarah: That is such a good tip. That’s such a good tip. I’m going to move to questions in just a second, but I’m going to ask you this kind of final one before we jump into other people’s questions.

But if you had kind of one or two takeaways for those sitting here, either for burnout in terms of taking care of themselves, because these people, a lot of them have been carrying the wellbeing can in their organisations and they are tired and they are exhausted and it is a big job. What would you say and.

Or in terms of impacting the burnout happening across their organisations, what sort of one or two things, real takeaways for them?

, 47:37

Suzi: Well, I would say is that if you are in that wellbeing space and you are wanting to influence some positive change in your organisation, look to who are the decision makers and who, what and how are they influenced?

You know, how do they like to be communicated? For some senior execs or a particular chief executive, they might be, well, what’s it, you know, it’s about the bottom line, it’s about profit, it’s about action.

 So use all of the plethora of statistics around the costs of burnout. If another person is. What’s the latest thing that, you know is in this space, if that’s what motivates them, use that. So really put yourself in the shoes of the person you’re trying to influence and tailor your argument around this whole conversation to them, rather than. And, you know, you might think, well, it’s just not good for our people.

And that might be, you know, it might be about relationships, but it might be different. So that would be the first thing. And certainly, I would say, find ways to treat it like a system, like an organisational issue rather than an individual issue. If you start with that mindset, I think that might open up some different strategies.

I mean, there’s a whole lot more individual, practical strategies that I talk about in the book, but that’s just a couple. What do you say, Jarrod? What do you think?

, 48:59

Jarrod: Yeah, I guess, you know, personal care, you know, one of my things is, you know, you do have to look after yourself. Organisations will go, oh, my gosh, you’ve been burnt out. I’m so sorry. Yeah, but it doesn’t really help me, does it?

So one of my things is keeping a tally of hours because I was doing all this research on 55 work hours. I call it the red line. It’s like the line of death. And you know what someone said to me? How many hours do you work?

I went, I don’t know, surely not 55 hours. So the last two months, I have kept the track, I have crossed the red line a few weeks, which is good to know, right? Because I’m just like, damn.

And I’ve had a 54 hours week and believe it or not, I went, hooray. But in my mind I was like, so close. So I think keeping a track of yourself is important. The other one there is think about, you know, I like scaring people. Theresa Gattung said she took three months to recover from being burnt out. Can you?

Do you have enough leave sick leave money in the bank in Auckland to afford doing nothing for three months? I somehow suspect not. So hence it is in my own personal interest to take care of my burnout, even if.

And if it is my boss. And my last point here is you smouldering, bro, was something that I. This is where my toast analogy came from.

I said that to my friend because he was doing something, and I said, man, you’re on there you don’t look like your bone tank, but you certainly look like you’re progressing your way. So I think using that as a friendly kind of terminology to say, I think you’re smouldering a bit there. I can see a bit of black smoke rising.

And if you can do that to your friends and co workers, hopefully they will do it to you, because we may not be, you know, it might be that you’re looking in the mirror and everything looks good and everybody else sees that there’s a lot of black smoke coming.

, 51:07

Sarah: Thanks again for listening today. It’s been great to have you along. If you’re keen to join the revolutionaries of wellbeing, head to row wellbeing, that’s R O W wellbeing.com and follow the links to sign up if you’re in our community. Thanks again, and we look forward to catching up with you really soon.

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